1. februar, 2005
Af Peder Holm-Pedersen og Peter Mørkeberg Hinsby
Vi lever i en kultur, der er mere visuel end nogensinde før. Alligevel lærer vi kun at skrive, læse og regne men ikke at se. Selvfølgelig kan vi se – men at se i en kulturel betydning betyder, at du er i stand til at dechifrere det, der af en eller anden grund bliver serveret for dig. Turbulens.net har mødt billedhuggeren Bjørn Nørgaard til en samtale om kunst og dannelse.
Skal kunsten have en dannende funktion?
Principielt skal kunsten ikke noget som helst. Og det er lang tid siden den skulle det. I dag må det være op til den enkelte kunstner eller gruppe om man vil påtage sig et sådant ansvar. På den anden side kan man sige, at den blotte tilstedeværelse af kunst i samfundet kan have en dannende funktion, hvad enten kunstneren vil det eller ej. Derudover så er der den kunst, der gerne vil have en dannende funktion. I 1960’ernes sociale skulpturer og kunstopfattelse i det hele taget lå det implicit i kunsten, at den skulle have en dannende effekt. Oven i købet en særlig dannende effekt.
I 1960’erne kaldte vi det modeller i stedet for skulpturer for at lægge afstand til de klassiske skulpturer, der idealiserede og afbildede naturen. I selve modelbegrebet ligger det, at man laver en model af, hvordan det kan blive, frem for hvordan det er. Man fandt ud af, at man rent visuelt i billedet blev i stand til at pege på alternative måder at indrette samfundet på. Selve ”modellerings”-processen blev vigtigere end det færdige produkt. Den tradition ligger dybt i billedkunsten i dag.
Du taler om en særlig dannende effekt for kunsten. Er denne effekt så ikke blevet undervurderet i dannelsesdiskussionen, hvor det ofte har været det skrevne ord, som har stået i centrum?
Jo, man forestiller sig desværre, at den fine dannelse foregår på papir i tekst. Vi ser i dag at arkitekt- og designskoler er blevet universiteter. Kunst og håndværk er ikke fint nok. Den udvikling er udtryk for en reaktionær modernistisk holdning. Det ligger i den klassiske modernisme, at vi er i stand til at forstå verden absolut. Det er tanken om, at vi en eller anden dag har beskrevet selv den mindste lille brik i universet og forstår alle sammenhænge. I dag ved vi jo godt, at det er noget vrøvl. Men det at erkende, at vi ikke kan nå til bunds i tingene, gør det ikke mindre spændende hele tiden at komme et nyt sted hen.
Den tekstmæssige trend vi ser i øjeblikket er fuldstændigt forældet. Parolen er: jo længere fra materien, jo bedre. Det er den gamle ide om at mappedrengen er finere end håndværkeren. At vi alle burde sidde på rad og række med vores computer og skrive alenlange tekster om det at være designer, eller hvad man nu måtte være. Det er en afstumpet og syg tanke, at ideer opstår uafhængigt af materien. Du lærer metodisk gennem din omgang med materialet, og det er forskelligt fra fag til fag.
På akademiet har vi altid sagt: en billedhugger forsker ved at lave skulpturer. Billedhuggerprofessorens forskningsresultater er hans skulpturelle værker. Han skal ikke bagefter nødvendigvis sidde og skrive x-antal sider om sine værker. Man må gøre sig klart, at dannelse er noget, der, alt efter hvilket felt vi taler om, har mange forskellige måder at udtrykke sig på. Dem, der insisterer på at alt kan oversættes til tekst og lineære sproglige begreber er i færd med at skabe et absurd sprog og opbygge animæiske luftkasteller, der ikke har nogen krop og aldrig vil få det.
Hvorfor forsøger vi så alligevel at gøre det?
Fordi vi i dag vil måle alt. Mennesker der ikke selv er kunstnere, arkitekter eller designere kan ikke aflæse de enkelte værker, fordi de intet har at måle det udfra. Der sidder derfor nogle folk inde i ministeriet og udregner kvoter for, hvor meget den enkelte arkitekt eller designer skal producere, og at det skal omsættes i et vist antal sider tekst, hvilket er fuldstændigt absurd. Det er det samme som at sige, at en billedhugger skal producere så og så mange kilo skulptur om året. Det svarer fuldstændigt til Sovjetunionen i gamle dage, hvor gryder og pander vejede flere tons. Produktionskvoterne blev målt i kilo, så jo tungere man lavede dem, desto hurtigere opnåede man de kvoter, der var krav om fra centralt hold.
Kan man sige at det samme gør sig gældende i dannelsesdiskussionen herhjemme?
Ja, bureaukratiet har i den grad taget over. Vi ser i øjeblikket et kontrolflip fra regeringens side, der vil måle og veje alt – også dannelsen. Noget af det vigtigste ved dannelse er netop, at det ikke kan måles. Du kan måle en karakter, men den elev, der scorer det højeste gennemsnit i en gymnasieklasse, kan sagtens være udannet.
Dannelse betyder, at du er i stand til at samle den viden du har og sætte den i relation til andre områder og dermed danne dig din egen opfattelse af sammenhængen. Eksakt viden er altså ikke det samme som dannelse, men selvfølgelig en væsentlig del af dannelsen.
Hvis vi holder fast i, at viden og dannelse altså ikke er det samme, kan man så sige, at kunstens dannelsespotentiale netop ligger i, at den er i stand til at sætte den viden man har ind i en ny sammenhæng. Kunne vi eventuelt nærme os en beskrivelse af dette potentiale gennem et af dine værker?
Ja vi kan jo tage Christian den 3. gravmæle fra 1975, hvilket er et meget programmatisk værk.

“Christian III`s gravmæle”, Nørgaard 1975
Helt bogstaveligt tager jeg en række historiske og kunsthistoriske elementer fra andre sammenhænge og sætter sammen til en ny syntaks. Ved at udskifte en række af elementerne fra den oprindelige skulptur, der står i Roskilde Domkirke, ændres skulpturens betydning i overensstemmelse med den samfundsmæssige realitet – et demokratisk samfund. Figurer fra kunsthistorien mødes på måder, de normalt aldrig vil mødes på. Slaven af Michelangelo i stedet for korset, gråspurven i stedet for englene osv. Ligesom et tilfældigt menneskes morgenmad en tilfældig dag i året – i et demokratisk samfund – er lige så vigtig som kongen var det i sin samtid.
Her indbygges altså en masse betydningslag, som det dannede menneske vil kunne afkode og se i et helt nyt perspektiv.
Det særlige ved billedets logik er, at det har en struktur, hvori du kan anbringe begreber og emner, der normalt ikke ville møde hinanden. De kan oven i købet mødes som ligeværdige. Det gør jo, at den enkelte, når han ser på billedet, kan befri disse genstande fra deres nedarvede værdisammenhænge og give dem ny betydning.
Du taler om en befrielse af genstandene igennem en nedbrydning af de traditionelle værdihierarkier. Skal det bare være ren nedbrydning eller skal der ikke i samme bevægelse være noget der bekræftes?
Jo, vi må insistere på, at der lægger nogle grundværdier i mennesket, som aldrig bliver forældet.
Alle taler eksempelvis om, at socialismen er forældet, blot fordi muren faldt for 15 år siden. Men hvad så med kristendommen, der er en 2000 år gammel fortælling. Er eksempelvis næstekærligheden og barmhjertigheden forældet?
Pointen er netop, at det ikke er dem, værdierne, der bliver forældet, men derimod vores måde at bruge og beskrive dem på, der er blevet slidt. Vi må derfor hele tiden gentage og genformulere dem og derved revitalisere dem. Det er jo det, jeg har prøvet med gobelinerne. Hvordan kan vi befri de her historiske billeder, som vi næsten ikke kan se længere, fordi vi har set dem så mange gange. Det interessante er jo at se dem én gang til. For det er samtidig kun os, der kan give dem nyt liv.
Er det så her billedkunstens helt specifikke bidrag til dannelsen ligger. At vi igennem den lærer at se tingene på en ny og frugtbar måde?
Det vigtige det er at lære at se, og billedkunsten er et af de steder, hvor der foregår grundforskning i at se – hvad det vil sige at iagttage et objekt. Det vigtige ved både kendskab til kunsthistorien og det at tegne er gennem kunsthistorien og tegningen, at lære at se. De kreative fag må derfor ikke bare reduceres til at være fag, hvor eleven udtrykker sig selv. En ide, der især lever rundt omkring på højskolerne. Det er fag, hvor vi skal lære at udtrykke noget og ikke mindst lære at se at sanse.
Vi lever i en kultur, der er mere visuel end nogensinde før. Alligevel lærer vi kun at skrive, læse og regne men ikke at se. Selvfølgelig kan vi se – men at se i en kulturel betydning betyder, at du er i stand til at dechifrere det, der af en eller anden grund bliver serveret for dig. Dvs. at være dannet i at se betyder, at man er i stand til at afkode de mange visuelle udtryk, vi præsenteres for og bedømme, hvad der er vigtigt, og hvad der er uvigtigt for os.
Jeg kan illustrere det igennem et eksempel.
Dengang der stadig var de her skakudsendelser i radioen, som jeg i øvrigt ikke fattede en brik af, men som var dybt fascinerende i deres kodesprog. Det blev poesi, jeg kan huske, at de diskuterede det her med at spille mod en computer. Og der har mennesket jo virkelig en fordel. Jo længere man kommer hen i spillet desto bedre stillet er mennesket fordi maskinen er nødt til hver gang at regne samtlige muligheder igennem før den kan vælge sit næste træk. Den erfarne, dvs. den dannede skakspiller derimod, har et billede af skakbrættet, en totalopfattelse kunne man sige, der gør at han kan udelukke en hel masse muligheder og i stedet koncentrere sig om de felter hvor det virkelig brænder på. Han kan hurtigt aflæse hvad der er vigtigt og uvigtigt.
Det vigtige i denne sammenhæng er, at man ikke foretager en automatisk aflæsning af billeder, dvs. en aflæsning hvor de etablerede værdisystemer og –hierarkier blot gentages. De må gentages på en ny måde, for ellers bliver de, som jeg nævnte tidligere slidte og ufrugtbare. Det er netop her billedkunsten kommer ind i billedet. Ved at befri tingene og begreberne fra deres traditionelle sammenhænge og i visuelle udtryk sætte dem ind i nye sammenhænge, kan billedkunsten virke dannende på beskuerens evne til at se.
Og det er en dannelse vi i høj grad mangler. Det er jo også derfor, at de kan slippe af sted med alt det lort de laver af film og reklamer. Hvis folk lærte at se, ville de ikke virke. Jeg kan føle mig direkte forulempet i dårlige visuelle miljøer. Man aner simpelthen ikke, hvordan man meddeler sig visuelt i dag. Fagligheden omkring visuel kommunikation er gået fløjten, reelt er det i dag kun markedet der systematisk tænker i billeder, men med en materialistisk ensretning, der ikke er bedre end den værste sovjetpropaganda og ligeså fordummende. Det negative ved 60’ernes opgør med autoriteter var tendensen til en nivellerende effekt, idet intet måtte være bedre end andet.
Det må vi gøre op med i dag for noget er bedre end andet. Derfor er jeg helt enig med Poul Gernes, den ældste på Eks-skolen, der altid sagde til mig: ”Broder man tager skade af at se på dårlig kunst.” Og det kan simpelthen ikke understreges nok.
Er det ligefremt skadeligt, er det ikke bare uinteressant?
Nej det er ikke bare uinteressant, det kan være direkte nedbrydende. Hvis de fysiske og visuelle miljøer man vokser op med, er af så ringe standard som vi ser det mange steder i dag, er man ude af stand til at danne sig mod større æstetiske kvaliteter. Og det er lige nøjagtig kultur eller dannelse at kunne overskride sig selv mod noget større. Grimt og smukt er jo ikke givet på forhånd. Det er et kulturfænomen og det er noget man danner sig til.
For nu at gøre det helt konkret. Lige nu står du og skaber. Du danner nogle former ud af noget materiale, hvilket jo nok er den mest umiddelbare og konkrete form for dannelse. Kan man overføre erfaringer fra denne konkrete materielle dannelsesproces til den mere generelle diskussion om dannelse?
Ja, jeg mener det er muligt at overføre nogle erfaringer fra det jeg vil kalde den kunstneriske metode.
Den enkelte kunstner eller kunstnergruppe skal jo i arbejdet med at skabe et kunstværk samle og forme et materiale. I det arbejde, dvs. i diskussionen af hvordan materialet skal formes, er man med den kunstneriske metode fritaget for at følge nogle på forhånd bestemte hierarkier og værdier. Et billedes princip er jo, at indenfor billedets ramme eller område, behøver du ikke at forholde dig til, om det ene går forud for det andet, eller om de to elementer nu også plejer at være sammen. Du kan frit, intuitivt bringe de elementer ind i billedet, du har lyst til.
Det medfører en langt større åbenhed, fordi man ikke på forhånd er underlagt nogle givne hierarkiske værdier. Hierarkiet i den kunstneriske metode opstår i forbindelse med det spil, der foregår i selve billeddannelsen. Der kan altså opstå andre hierarkier end de på forhånd fastlagte. Så længe værket ikke er færdigt, kan der rykkes rundt med de forskellige elementer.
Den kunstneriske metode er altså en særlig form for pædagogik, som ikke har nogen på forhånd formuleret hensigt.
Kunne man med gavn benytte den kunstneriske metode på folkeskolen?
Ja, det mener jeg man kan, eller den kan i hvert fald virke inspirerende.
Indholdet – børnene skal lære at læse og skrive og blive oplyste, velfungerende mennesker osv. – skal jo i mødet med børnene have en form, som den enkelte elev kan aflæse. Og det er skolens æstetik: Skolens æstetik er der, hvor substansen, dét der skal læres, får en formel form i mødet med barnet – i lærerens måde at fremlægge det for eleverne på.
Spørgsmålet er, hvordan den form skal være? Kan vi gøre matematikken smukkere? Kan vi give historieundervisningen en form, hvor den bliver en helhed – en stor smuk form, som giver os mulighed for at forholde os til den tilværelse, vi lever i? I bestræbelserne på at nå dertil, kan den kunstneriske metode, æstetikken, være til hjælp. Der er naturligvis den forskel, at kunstneren ikke ligesom læreren er nødt til at hente sit stof, sin substans, på bestemte hylder. Men det stof, som læreren så henter på de bestemte hylder, kan han/hun jo vælge at give en masse forskellige former. Og det er her den kunstneriske metode kan være til inspiration. Problemet for læreren er imidlertid alle de regler og rammer, der voldsomt har indsnævret hans/hendes muligheder for selv at forholde sig til formen. Det er en stor fejl. For valget af formen burde være meget mere individuelt for den enkelte lærer.

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